Embracing a Life Long Learner Mindset with Will Hines
On this week’s Level Up! With Shay, I am eager to introduce you to Will Hines, an actor, comedian, author, podcaster and musician. Will shares how he got into comedy as a computer programmer, how he knew he was getting better at improv, why he loves trying almost every idea he has, how it is being a beginner all over again, but this time in stand up comedy and so much more.
I hope you enjoy our conversation and if anything that Will says resonates with you, please share this episode on Instagram and tag me @levelupwithshay and Will @williebhines.
Thank you so much for being here. It’s time to level up.
Subscribe to Level Up! With Shay wherever you get your podcasts.
“The first challenge is…convincing yourself that you deserve to do it.
That’s the first boss battle.”
-Will Hines
Will’s links:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/williebhines
Twitter: https://twitter.com/willhines
Website: https://www.willhines.net/
IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm2654402/
Level Up! With Shay Links
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/levelupwithshay/
Sign up for my weekly email: https://bit.ly/3ClYM8t
Follow Level Up! With Shay
Timestamps
2:49 - Will shares how he initially got into comedy at Upright Citizens Brigade
11:03 - Being true and confident
17:25 - Gaining confidence while performing
19:23 - You have to be bad at something before you get good at it
20:24 - Sometimes it’s easier to perform in front of an audience than in front of your peers
26:02 - How to try new things
32:27 - Persistence and endurance are keys to success
34:06 - How Will wrote his first book
38:19 - Will’s podcasting journey
41:38 - Start and finish as many ideas as you can
46:34 - How Will is leveling up by planning and revising more
49:20 - Feel stuck? Be like Will and pretend you are already famous
Transcription
Shay 0:00 (intro) Hello and welcome to Level Up! With Shay. I am a comedian, entrepreneur and lover of personal growth here to share stories of my level up journey bring other fascinating and inspirational artists and creatives to share their story and to help you realize your potential, take action, and fulfill your biggest dreams. I'm excited for you to hear today's guests. Will Hines. Will is an actor, comedian, author podcaster, and musician based in Los Angeles. He started improv training at the Upright Citizens Brigade originally in New York then moved to LA. He has appeared on Brooklyn-Nine-Nine, Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, Broad City, Inside Amy Schumer, Conan O'Brien, and many others. He has been a guest on the podcast Comedy Bang! Bang!, Improv for Humans, Hollywood Handbook - just to name a few. He also produces and hosts other podcasts including Screw It, We're Just Gonna Talk About Comics and Screw It, We're Just Gonna Talk About the Beatles. He has taught improv since 2000 and has an online improv school called The World's Greatest Improv School. He has two books called How to be the Greatest Improviser on Earth and Pirate Robot Ninja: an Improv Fable which he co-wrote with an improv teammate. And yes, he also makes music and is a part of a band called Wayne and Ronnie with another fellow improviser and they now have two albums. Will got started doing improv comedy after he found he was bored working as a computer programmer in New York City and wanted more interesting people in his life. He continued to train at UCB performing with some of the funniest people in the city, including, one time, with Robin Williams. He has recently started to write and perform stand-up comedy, a craft he is still fairly new at but pushes himself to do it to become a better script writer. I met Will at UCB in LA and he was one of my improv teachers. He's very kind, smart, and, from my eyes, he seems fearless on stage (but that's probably from the years of experience he has), and he's full of wisdom and silliness. Can't wait for y'all to hear. Please welcome to Level Up! With Shay: Will Hines.
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Level Up! With Shay. I am so excited to interview today's guest: Will Hines.
Will Hines 2:19
Hi, Shay. Hello.
Shay 2:20
Thank you so much for being here. I'm like, you know, there is no short introduction I can do for you because there are so many things that you've done and I have to shorten it up a little bit.
Will Hines 2:31
Don't feel pressured. You can be very incomplete. It's all right.
Shay 2:35
Okay, great. So I mean, what made you just initially, you know, get into comedy. I know, you started comedy at UCB in New York a while ago. And so, yeah, what got you into that?
Will Hines 2:49
Okay, so I started pretty late, it felt late. I started when I was like 29 or 30. I was a computer programmer before that. I mean, to be honest, I was always kind of just a person who floated from thing to thing. I never really had a strong vision or a plan and so like, I graduated with a degree in English, just because I mean, like reading and writing like I didn't even really know what I wanted to do. I think I didn't know what I wanted to do then. I think, vaguely, I wanted to be a writer. But I didn't even really have a strict plan there either. So I graduated, and I was a journalist for a while but then I, that was broke. I graduated from college in 1992 and this is when the internet was first sort of like, emerging into the mainstream. And so while I was a journalist, I learned computer programming, really just to make money, so I didn't have to move home. And at that time, you didn't have to know that much computer stuff to get a quote "computer job". Like you say "computer programmer", it sounds like extremely technical and it usually is, but in like 1994, if you could figure out HTML, which is tricky, but not like that tricky you could get a job being a quote, unquote, "computer programmer" and then once I was in, I just started teaching myself other languages I had an aptitude for. So my 20s were spent doing a thing I had never planned to do, which was computer programming. I did enjoy it and I was grateful to have a job and stuff. But it's very day job, right? Like very offices and cubicles. So I was bored. And the people in these places were driving me nuts. I mean, they were really nice and I had good jobs with good people, but they were just like normies you know, they just were like, you know, spouses and houses and kids, and nothing wrong with this, but like it drove me insane. Like I couldn't I mean, I was a real snob. I couldn't stand anything anybody talked about ever, and I felt bad because I knew they were like nice people. I hated it.
Shay 4:47
I feel like, yes, I could see that with you working in an office because it is a monotony and it just seems like you are the opposite of that.
Will Hines 4:56
Yeah, just, I mean, I did not like disliking the environment, because it's, once again, sweet people, good job, you know? It wasn't like, it wasn't like a raw deal or whatever. But you know, people coming to me like, "You see Jay Leno last night that guy's the King of Comedy", and I'd be like, "Are you out of your mind? You think he's the king of Comedy?". It drove me nuts. So I was like, I gotta get out of here. So I started doing comedy at night in New York City just to be around more interesting people. I had no professional aspirations, no confidence or faith that I could certainly ever do it in any way. I was a shy, you know, person who overthought everything with no acting experience at all. But I would go to open mics in New York City and do stand up or audit improv classes just to be around creative people. Like I was thinking, "Okay, I'll do boring day job during the day and I'll take classes in these things at night and I will get to like, kind of, live in that world". And I didn't even know what that would lead to. I was like, "Oh, that'll be good for the next like five years and I bet that'll get old and I'll have to think of something else". So I started doing comedy, I guess, just to be around interesting people. And then this included discovering the Upright Citizens Brigade theater, when it was sort of new in New York City. And I just clicked with that place. I just made friends. I started getting put on teams and hired to be coaches and teachers and it was a surprise to me. And I was, I had a lot of trouble thinking of myself as a creative person. But it happened there. And so I would say from 1999 when I was 29, for like the next five years was just like living at UCB and learning its little society and system, you know, classes and coaching and indie shows and Herald night and stuff, getting funnier, becoming a better actor. Also, just learning how to run an improv class or an improv practice, or, you know what good notes were after a show. I just lived in that world. And I loved it, you know, I loved everybody. As opposed to my day job, every single person I met at UCB I liked or at least I found them interesting, even if they were complete assholes, like, they were just, they were funny and intriguing. And I just was like, I just like it better here. And I quit computer programming, to just do coaching full time and to try to be a comedy writer, which I had no idea how to do. None. I like said "I want to be comedy writer". And then I was like, 33. And I would just get up in the morning, I was doing part-time, freelance computer programming, like two days a week. So the other two days a week I would get up, go to a cafe, order a cup of coffee, sit there and be like, "What, should I try to write a TV show?". I had no class, no idea what that was, didn't even like television, was real weird. So I don't know how I got into it was like be around people I liked.
Shay 7:55
Yeah. Did you feel that people around you, you know, had a vision and they were like, "I am going to be an actor or writer".
Will Hines 8:03
Yes, this was, you know, this was in New York City. So there were a lot of kids who had gone to NYU, to like, be a professional actor or writer. And they, you know, they were like, nothing, you can't really be trained for this. But there were classes at NYU that would try to like train you to be an actor or a writer and I, I didn't do it. So I can't speak to it. I'm not sure that it's the kind of thing that can be taught. But I do think that it connected these folks with other people who were trying to do it. And if you get like, if you're friends with 25 people, and they're all trying to be actors or writers, you start like learning about how that happens, you know, agents and managers and meetings and development executives and studios and stuff like that, like, none of that stuff I really knew. But I would say the people I met at UCB, who all seemed to be 20 years old, I'm sure I'm misremembering this, but it felt like it. They had declared, "I want to be in entertainment", and they were trying to do it. And then I was too shy to ask them for a long time to be like, "What do you want? How'd you get on that show? How'd that happen?". Or I wasn't friends with the people who were really doing it. I kind of, I was warm acquaintances with them. But I didn't feel like comfortable walking up to Paul Scheer, great friendly guy I probably could have, but I felt like it would be weird for me to go up to him and be like, "Hey, I had you in one class. How'd you get on Best Week Ever: VH1, how'd that happen?".
Shay 9:25
Right.
Will Hines 9:26
I know him now and he wouldn't have minded it if I'd asked. But at the time, it felt like incredibly rude. So I didn't ask him.
Shay 9:32
And I think sometimes when you ask that question, sometimes it's like people kind of take it as well, you know, it wasn't just given to me.
Will Hines 9:40
Right. It's almost insulting to ask or they're like, I can't help you. If you're trying to get a favor. It feels like an imposition or something.
Shay 9:47
Yeah, but yeah, most everybody is nice and willing to give advice for sure.
Will Hines 9:52
I guess people don't mind telling their story, at least, they'll sort of be like, "This is how I got it." And then you find out basically every or 95% of entertainment jobs are like you were already friends with somebody and then they got a job and then they brought you in. It's just like a zombie virus spreading like someone who's already in the business passes it on to somebody else. Whether it is a, you know, child or a relative of the original person or a friend or something like, that's kind of what most people's stories are some version of I was friends with somebody, and they brought me in.
Shay 10:24
Yep. Relationships, for sure.
Will Hines 10:26
Yeah.
Shay 10:26
Now, was there something that you remembered throughout your practice and just getting better and learning comedy at UCB? Like, did you approach practices with certain intentions?
Will Hines 10:37
Oh, yeah. That's, you had that? Did you do that?
Shay 10:40
Well, I think I had a couple of coaches that were like, focus on one thing for a practice, you know, if you want to focus on tags or shoot it's been awhile.
Will Hines 10:52
Yeah, like some component of whatever it is, you're doing. That makes sense.
Shay 10:57
Yeah, just to get a little bit better. Did you ever have something like that? Or were you just kind of like, I'm just gonna get up there?
Will Hines 11:03
No, I definitely, I definitely would do that. But mine would be a bit more like emotional, maybe not so mechanical. Like, I don't remember, I probably did, but I don't remember focusing on like initiations, it was more like confidence, or like, be truthful, like, don't go for a joke or, maybe, go for a joke. See what that's like, try hard to put unusual things in scenes. It was more kind of like that going into a practice, or I'd be I remember very early on, it was all just like, don't quit, like, I mean, not like the whole thing. But like, don't quit it while you're in the scene. Like don't give up. Don't shrug your shoulders. Don't say I don't know, just like make a decision. Even if it's bad, even if it's uncool. Even if you feel like it is revealing to the rest of the practice group that you have no idea what you're doing, which happened. I mean, I was so foreign performing and comedy was so foreign to me that like just stepping off a backline and starting a scene felt so strange, like, it just felt awkward. Like, I looked insane. I probably did. But I remember feeling very self conscious. It was a lot of just like emotional stuff to get the confidence to do another rep. Just to be a student, you know. I'm taking guitar lessons right now. And I'm not so good at it. And I really enjoy it. But it's also reminding me of like that student mindset. And basically, you have to be willing to like humiliate yourself to learn, and to be willing to just like, look stupid. And I don't know, I don't know any other way to get better at something. You have to just like, be bad at it publicly. Then, like, hope to God that you get the skills to get better. And it's really hard. It's like really emotionally difficult. So it's good reminder for me, because I'm still teaching improv to remind me of how courageous a lot of students are probably being just by taking a class like, it's very humbling just to say, I will take a class I will assume the student position.
Shay 12:57
Yeah, it is very nerve wracking for people. Definitely me. Definitely. I would shake my hands would shake, you know, trying to do any type of scene work.
Will Hines 13:07
I felt that way too. Before shows I'd get so nervous. I still do sometimes. But in the early days, like, I might like want, wanting to maybe not do the show nervous, like maybe it'd be better if I just pretend to be sick and go home. Because it was just so embarrassing to get onstage in front of a small, you know what the worst was in those early days, sometimes my friends would come watch me. My friends from outside the comedy world, you know, like to support and I almost feel like, please don't come because it's gonna be bad and I'm gonna be bad. And there you are with your normal life watching me and my level two improv grad show, maybe don't come but then sometimes they would anyway, and I would just kind of be like to myself, alright, this is part of the journey. Like you have to just humble yourself in front of these normal friends. And, and I was, you know, I felt old. I was like, 32-33 doing like a grad show for like a level two, or it doesn't sound little to me now. But at the time, I just felt like an idiot like my friends my age had kids and houses and I'm like, "Come watch my level two improv grad show at which I'm not good and the class is bad." And this is when the UCB was no UCB. And no, no one ever heard of that either. So come to this thing you've never heard of to watch a bunch of people be bad, including me and, by the way, you have to pay $5 to do it.
Shay 14:22
Yeah, I mean, even UCB not being I mean, now people flocked to UCB because it's so established. But yeah, being there before, you know, right as it was getting established. It's like, what is this place? What am I doing?
Will Hines 14:35
I mean, Amy wasn't even on SNL. There was nobody famous involved. Like, I would try to tell my friends like "Oh, Amy Poehler does the shows on Sunday", and they'd be like, "Who's who is Amy Poehler?", like, Oh, God, we're doomed. And I mean, it's weird when you try to use like famous people to justify your organization, but it is a good shorthand when you're talking to regular folks. But yeah, so intention was more just like courage for a willingness to be bad, that's what I remember pretty vividly. But I still kind of feel that way. Like, if I'm like trying to sell a script and have a friend read it, it doesn't feel that different than asking somebody to watch my level three improv grad show because it's going to be like, well, it's not like this script is great. But I don't, I don't know what to do with it. I need help. And it's tough. It is. The thing is, I remember people around me who were good. Like, there were people in my classes who were like, really funny and confident and good, who I was friends with, you know, and so, you know, we'd be having lunch before the show, and I felt like equals, and then we'd get on stage and I felt so much less than them. I almost felt like I didn't deserve to be friends with these people.
Shay 15:42
So that changed.
Will Hines 15:44
That did eventually change. I remember like, in like, 2004, people started saying like, "Oh, you're good. Like, will you come be on my team? Will you come do this?", and I was like, "Am I really? What am I doing? What did I do that made you like?". It's weird.
Shay 16:02
Yeah, I kind of felt that. I was on the Mess Hall Team at UCB and so very funny people. Even one of them moved from Mess Hall to Harold. But yeah, just very funny people and so I felt that too. And I would get very nervous going and performing with them when it was is like a special night, a special team. And I don't know, maybe they felt that way about themselves, too. But yeah, it was it was very nerve wracking.
Will Hines 16:30
Early days of getting good artists stuff. I think it's all emotional management. It's all like managing your own confidence and stuff. I mean, yeah, there's the skills of whatever you're doing also, but I'm not, I don't even think that's the first challenge. The first challenge is like, convincing yourself that you deserve to do it. That's the first boss battle.
Shay 16:50
Oh, yeah. I relate to that so much. Because I know, so many facets of improv, it's like, oh, but I'm still getting on stage and so nervous. So it's like, it doesn't matter how skilled I am if I can't manage my emotions. So as you continue to perform, you know, was there ever a threshold that you felt, "Okay, now, I'm an expert, you know, this is, I've put in 10,000 hours"? Like, was there a different feeling that you felt maybe it was the people that was asking you to do their show or whatever. But was there a threshold that you went through?
Will Hines 17:25
I think it took a long time. I mean, it took longer than it did for most people, I would say it took like 10 years before I felt like I was good at it. And even then it was like in levels. I mean, at some point, I felt like I was good at like the indie shows that were like in the little black box theatres where just other improvisers would come and watch. And then maybe the next level up was being good on the UCB stage with like, a full house at like Harold Night or something. And then the next level was being good on the weekend, when like a lot of normal, non-improv fans would go full house. They didn't give a shit about if it was improvised or not, they just wanted to have something funny happen. And then maybe the last level, which honestly, is still not always true, is feeling like the other people who I think are the best - do they think I'm good? And, actually, I'm still half-and-half on that. I'll do shows with like, really top people and I'm like, okay, the audience thinks I'm good, do these people on stage think I'm good? I don't think they do. (laughs)
Shay 18:24
You don't think so?
Will Hines 18:26
Sometimes, and then I have to kind of remind myself to like, not think of it that way and not depend on, not depend on anybody else's opinion, but certainly not depend on what I think their opinion is. That's fraught with lots of stinking thinking in there.
Shay 18:43
Yeah.
Will Hines 18:43
So I don't know, I guess, I mean, but really, it was 10 years before, I really felt confident saying I was good at stuff. And I was already a teacher at UCB. I got hired to be teacher in 2004. And I don't think I thought I was that good of a performer then. I thought I was an okay teacher at it. But, if my students came to watch me, I'd be like, "I hope they still listen to me in class once they see me try to do this".
Shay 19:06
Yeah, I've seen a lot of performers move from performing to teaching and I don't think there's ever a time where they're like, "Yes, I'm ready to teach now. I am fully, you know, capable of teaching", right? Like, there's a little bit of doubt.
Will Hines 19:23
You literally have to, I mean, anything you do, the first time you do it, you're not ready, you know, it's learned by doing so you have to do it to get good at it. Which means when you start doing it, you're not so good at it, or only partly good at it or something.
Shay 19:36
Yeah.
Will Hines 19:36
Tell me one of your moments of like, realizing you were better.
Shay 19:40
I think, you know, getting on Mess Hall that was like an external thing that happened that I'm like, "Okay, yeah, I am pretty good".
Will Hines 19:48
The UCB, like artistic director puts you on one of the house teams. That's a pretty big validation, for sure.
Shay 19:54
Yeah, and, you know, I think there were many moments and scenes where I just helped out the situation like, I kind of feel sometimes, okay, you make a decision and there's kind of relief. Oh, you helped your scene partner out, or you helped your team out with something. And there were just little moments of those where I was like, "Oh, wow, I am moving in the right direction. I'm not relying on, you know, other people, I can help the scene". Those are moments.
Will Hines 20:24
Yeah. You know, one thing that I was thinking hearing you talk about it, like, I always, I did feel more confident in front of audiences than I did in front of almost anything else. Like if it was in front of teachers, or coaches, or my peers, I was never so sure that they liked me, or that I could do something they would like, but I was like, get me on a stage in front of regular people. And I usually felt better, not right away. But like that. That was the first thing that I felt good about. I was like, so I'd be in practice, right? I feel like the coach doesn't think I'm good. You know, maybe they did, maybe they didn't, but I didn't feel like it. Certainly they weren't like smiling or laughing or paying a lot of attention to me. And my peers on my team. I was like, "I know, they liked me as a person. I don't know if they think I'm that funny". But then I will get on stage, any kind of stage, like UCB, you know, regular show, that would probably that would be the highest level I would do, or an indie show with just regular people in the audience. And that would be like maybe 10 people at a black box theater or something like that. In those situations where there was an audience, I felt better, I was like, I'm going to be able to do it here. And I still kind of feel that way. I'm doing a lot more stand up now. I'm trying to figure out stand up to be a better writer. And I'll talk to my friends who also do it. And they'll be like, "Oh, what's your stuff like? What's your material like?". Totally sensible question. And I'll be like, "I have no, I don't know", I switch it up all the time. I don't have any way that works yet consistently. But the moment before I get on stage to do a show, like a stand up set, I'll feel like they're gonna like, I'm gonna do it, the audience will like me, I'm not sure I can convince my peers. So sometimes I like doing things where I can just get up in front of a crowd a lot, because I kind of feel like I learned the most there. Sitting in my room, trying to write stuff, I don't know who I am. But on the stage in front of an audience, I can feel it a little bit better. The first level of confidence I felt was just that the audience would like me. Isn't that weird. And the last level is that my peers like me, and I still don't always feel that.
Shay 22:25
I mean, how do you know that the audience will like you?
Will Hines 22:28
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how.
Shay 22:29
You just have that belief.
Will Hines 22:31
Yeah, I believed, I don't know where it came from. I was just sort of like, they'll like me, and, "I'll have a better chance of getting a laugh from the audience that I will from my coach, teacher or peers", I still kind of feel that way about, like auditions and stuff. I'm always like, "I'm not gonna be able to get an audition" or if I send a script in, they're just gonna tell me what's wrong with it. But God dammit, let me do a sketch on stage and they will like me.
Shay 22:55
Yeah
Will Hines 22:55
I don't know where that came from. I mean, I must speak from somewhere. I do think like, people who are in the position of being gatekeepers, are way more critical than an audience is, and they're critical of like the wrong things a lot. So they're just I don't know, they're so often stupid compared to what an audience thinks and that if you listen to a bunch of TV development, people talk about what shows are good. Then you ask your normal friends, which shows they like and why, it's radically different. And I've heard friends all, you know, all my friends now are like, actors or writers or aspiring to be. I've heard them like talk about scripts and stuff, and they're so harsh. When they're analyzing, they're like, this is garbage. This TV shows the worst idea ever. And I was like, oh, that top 10 show that America loves you think it's garbage like you can't even try to think of why I'm not even talking about schlock like Big Bang Theory, right? Big Bang Theory is something that like, or whatever popular network show like comedy snobs like me love to shit on that stuff. I'm not even talking about that. I just mean, like, Seth Rogen will have a movie come out. What was that one where he was a secret service agent with Charlize Theron? Long Shot or something like that? He had some romantic comedy with Charlize Theron, where he played a secret service agent, alright. None of my comedy friends talked about it but like normal people will go watch it and it's like, "Oh, pretty good for a Seth Rogen movie. Oh, I didn't like it as much as Super Bad, but I thought was pretty good", or, "it's not as good as neighbors or whatever". And you'll hear them talk about literally just whether they thought it was funny or not, in a real way. Like Hollywood people are nuts. And, you know, you try getting put on Mess Hall. That's good. I agree that that's validation, but whatever audition, you were in, the people watching that audition for the duration of that audition, they became the most strict and harsh judges of improv ever and if you just, way more than a regular audience, whatever be I don't know. Somehow I was like, just get me in front of regular people, they'll like me. I don't know. I don't know how that happened.
Shay 24:54
Yeah, it's a great mindset to have even if it is delusional
Will Hines 24:59
I know, even if it comes from delusion, like I'm doing a show tonight for stand up and I'm looking forward to it, and it might bomb. I did one Sunday night and I bombed. But seconds before I got on stage Sunday night I was like, "I'll be able to pull this out". (laughs)
Shay 25:14
Well, I want to talk about stand up because I think on your website, I saw this and he would write sketch and dabbles in stand up like some arrogant, swaggering dilettante who can just do whatever the hell he feels like art be damned.
Will Hines 25:27
Oh, I forgot about that. Yeah.
Shay 25:28
(laughs) It's so interesting, because, you know, we tried to keep up with stand up, we'd go to all of these mics, with improv we'd go to all these jams. And then maybe we'll leave for a little bit and then we'll come back and we'll feel like we're out of the circle. Okay, we're not in an improver stand up circle. So how do you keep that attitude of like, I'm this arrogant, you know...
Will Hines 25:51
Swaggering dilettante dabbler?
Shay 25:53
Yeah, like, how do you keep that attitude?
Will Hines 25:56
You mean, like, give myself permission to do it, even if I feel like I'm out of it?
Shay 26:00
Yeah. And yeah, giving yourself permission to do it.
Will Hines 26:02
Yes, it's tough. But I look for places where you're allowed to just try it, whether it's a class or an open mic, where it's kind of set up for you to just to get reps just to go to the gym and try it. And so I guess I feel like if I'm allowed to just go to the gym, and play a game of basketball, however good I am, is measured in how many baskets I get. It's not like, did I pay my dues? Am I the right kind of person? It's like, let me just do it and see if I can do it. So if it's stand up, it's like, let me see if anybody laughs that'll tell me if I'm allowed to do it. And improv, you know, take a class, get up there and do it. Is the audience laughing? If the audience is just the class, or the audience is, like, regular people, just let me actually do it. And see if it works. Not just is it theoretically a good idea? Am I the right kind of person who should be doing it? I've never been that, you know, a 30 year old white dude who was a computer programmer. No one's like, get that guy in comedy. That was nobody's choice. I just wanted to do it because I was bored. So I was never anybody's Cinderella story of like, "Oh, I hope you make it". I never felt like that. I just did it because I couldn't bear to be in the regular world. I would rather be poor forever.
Shay 27:20
(laughs)
Will Hines 27:21
And lost. It was just no choice for me. Stand up, especially stand up comedians, man, they are so catty, about who quote unquote, "deserves to do it or not". Man, you hang around with standups before a show, all they talk about is who deserves it, who doesn't deserve it. It's like all that's being discussed. "Can you believe this person doing it or this person? They just got up there. And they're cheating. They're gimmicky. They're not a real comic." And then it's also like that shows not a real show. That guy's not treating his comics well. It's all just like, what is just and what is unjust in the stand up world, I mean, the harshest judges of any sub genre, and I just ignore all of it. I just like quietly nod. And I'm just like, you actually don't get to pick who deserves it or not, you don't get to pick what shows are good. What decides if the shows are good if an audience shows up and buys a ticket, and stand ups are good if people laugh at them, and it really has nothing to do, whether you declare that to be quote unquote, "the right way or not". Improvisers do it too, you know, that person paid dues, didn't pay dues, but standups are the worst. And I just ignore all of them. Because I do a fair amount here in LA. But I don't have enough time to do it every night. So I am not on the other stand up comedians minds' as a possible stand up. They're not even thinking about me, and it hurts a little bit. And I would like to have a little tribe of folks, but I don't give a shit. If there's a sign up list and I can get on it. Let me just do it. And then I started producing, I'm producing a show at the clubhouse. Remember the clubhouse Black Box Theater here in LA, I got a weekly slot and I do stand up. I produce it and it's stand up and improv, you know, two stand ups and two improv groups. So two stand ups go first and then two improv groups, because I'm more well known in the improv world. I can get pretty good improv groups, I can get an improv audience. And then because I just want to do stand up, I invite some stand ups to do it. And then sometimes I'll do set and I don't think any of the other stand ups are even thinking about my show as a quote unquote, "real show" that they're worried about. And frankly, they can go fuck themselves, like I don't really need them to. If you wait for your peers to declare it to be good, it'll never happen. They are the last ones. That's not true. Your immediate family will be the last ones to notice that you are creative but right before them will be your peers way way before your peers give you any credit you can win over the audience, and I say start there. And, also, that's all that matters.
Shay 30:01
Right.
Will Hines 30:01
You win over an audience, you got it. You don't need any of those other people.
Shay 30:04
Yeah, I was just talking about stand up with a fellow stand up comedian here a couple days ago and we were talking about kind of the pessimism that is in the community. And we were just like the people who are at the top who are really succeeding and doing their thing, they block it all out. They don't get in those conversations, and they just focus on themselves and getting better.
Will Hines 30:27
Yeah, just the work just like focus on the work. Like every stand up, the big I mean, everyone is like all humans, but stand up are the worst about like, saying, "I didn't get mine. I'm not getting what I deserve.", you know, persecution complex, like, "I am left out". And while they're busy focusing on their grievances, you can just do another set, and you'll whip right by them. I mean, I don't know, I guess there's, you can also have sympathy and compassion for them. But I find myself needing to just be like, the pre Stand Up Show Chatter is the most toxic and unhealthy conversations I've ever witnessed in the creative world. It's just nervous energy directed in the form of blaming people. And I really try to look for folks who seem to be emotionally nice, because they do exist of course, you know, I've acted some on TV shows and in TV shows in when you're in holding, and the other actors are sitting there. And you're like waiting for your turn to be filmed. Number one conversation is talking shit about more successful actors.
Shay 31:32
Yeah (laughs)
Will Hines 31:33
It is the dominant conversation. Oh, I worked with so and so you know, they're actually, they didn't even know their lines. They like, needed someone to like, feed them all their lines, or like, you know, so and so actually was terrible. Like I saw the movie couldn't believe they looked good. They were so bad. So bad, and it's just sort of like you just have to, you can enjoy it. But really don't put any stock in it. People in green rooms have no idea about who's good and who's bad. They just need to talk shit because I don't even know why. Because it's just nervous energy. All that shit. I just have to ignore it.
Shay 32:04
Yeah, I've been in that and it's like, complain about the holding area. Not enough snacks or whatever it looks like. Yeah.
Will Hines 32:12
Yeah, look at them have this couch it's terrible. Like you're gonna have a better room and like, you know, this host is so bad. They're not even warming up the show well, you know, the microphone is so stupid like the roots like you motherfucker, you better just be good. Why don't you just be good?
Shay 32:27
(laughs)
Will Hines 32:27
Figure it out. I mean, sometimes it's true. There's like exceptionally bad shows or whatever. It's not even that they're inaccurate. It's just like, you're focusing on it so much. Also, stand up, you know, you get practiced at like criticizing the world and then it's hard to turn your criticism engine off. But I mean, I think the reason I put that on my website is like he dabbles in stand up like a swaggering dilettante is I know that no other standup would agree that I am a real stand up, they would just never give it to me. And it's like, I'm not waiting for it. I'll make fun of myself. I'll call myself a swaggering dilettante, but I'm still doing it. Also, something else I noticed when I started off doing improv, and I felt like a lot of the people in my classes are better than me, which a lot of them were, most of them quit, like, wait a year, and 50% of your competition will be gone. Maybe more. People just quit. Honestly, endurance and persistence. I mean, that definitely you beat 50% of the people that way, maybe more, they'll just be gone. They won't be able to take it. Cry babies.
Shay 33:25
(laughs) That's so true. I love that persistence, for sure. And I want to talk about your books. You have a couple books, How to be the Greatest Improviser on Earth and then Pirate Robot Ninja an Improv Fable, which was co-written with Billy Merritt. I want to know what made you decide to write a book? That is a big undertaking.
Will Hines 33:47
Yeah. I had an improv blog on Tumblr, when Tumblr was in its prime. I know Tumblr still exists. But there was a while where I felt like everybody I knew had a Tumblr. Now very few people do. But I would put little improv essays on it. And it got popular. I got like 20,000 followers
Shay 34:04
What kind of improv essays?
Will Hines 34:06
My thoughts. You know, I was teaching, right. So just be like, "Oh, you know, I think we should use the phrase "accept offers" instead of "yes, and"", like real improv nerdy stuff, or like, "Oh, man, I saw a show last night and, you know, there wasn't much of an audience and the first three groups were just screaming high energy, and they bombed. And then the last group came out, and they were so quiet and calm, and they destroyed", and I was like, "I have to remember sometimes that confidence is not volume or whatever". So that'd be like a little essay. Confidence is not volume. But yeah, I would write these pretty quick. I wouldn't think about them too much. Some of them. Some of them I ended up liking some of them. I'd look back like a month later be like, that was stupid. That one was dumb. But it was you know, but a number of them would get really popular and passed around. So I did that for like five years. And then I just took the 30 or 40 most popular ones and was like that's a book and I like put it together. And then I had to kind of revise it and stitch it together. And once I looked at them all I saw, there's some gaps here that maybe I never talked about that I should talk about. And so it took like six months of more writing, once I gathered, but the core of the book were things that had been on this blog This is How to be the Greatest Improviser on Earth, and it's just a hodgepodge of essays. There's no like overall thesis in that book. It's just, you know, anybody who's read it, if I tell them, "Oh, it just used to be a bunch of essays on blogs", they wouldn't be like, surprised, like, "Oh, yeah, that makes sense". Because there's no theme to the book. So I don't know why I did the blog. I have no idea. I think I just was chasing those likes, chasing those social media retweets and validation or something like that, you know, but even that, I tried, I went to publishing companies and tried to sell my improv book as a comedy teacher at UCB, and dozens of people, said, "We don't want to sell your book, nobody's gonna buy an improv book", and, "who the fuck are you?", and, "you're not famous", and, "may I have a chapter? Yeah, this is a bad book". And I was like, Well, I'm gonna, again, just get me to the audience. I'll just do it. I will self-publish it. And I'll just like, let the people buy it. And I sold like 20,000 copies of that book, like, not like a massive number, but like, way more than these people ever would have told me it could sell. And then I don't know, I had trouble gatekeepers. And it's like, you don't know. I know, the improv audience. I've been in it for 15 years, they'll buy this book. I'm not going to really make any real money on it or retire. But I think it's, it'll be successful. And so I self-published it. And then Billy's book, The Pirate Robot Ninja book, I was so high off of my success for How to be the Greatest Improviser on Earth I was like, "Well, I'm gonna do another one." But I tried to write another one. And I tried to write a bunch. I didn't really like anything I came up with and then I just sit with Billy, we're on the same improv team in Atlanta, and I'm like, "Billy, I bet your pirate robot ninja thing would be a good book". I was always like, my book doesn't have a theme. What's a good improv theme? And I was like, Pirate robot ninja. That's a good that's a good like, principle. And it's Billy's. Billy is the one who's always like use that when he's taught and stuff, and I was like, so I approached him and I was like, let's do a book. And I think it's good, we aimed it at beginners. And I realize now that beginners don't buy improv books. So if you write an improv book, you gotta write it for the deeply obsessed.
Shay 37:13
Yeah.
Will Hines 37:14
You gotta write it for people who kind of, already pretty good at it. Like, advanced, advanced people are the ones buying improv books. So you got to write a book for them. And Pirate Robot Ninja is for beginners. So, people buy it, but I really thought it was gonna be like a runaway smash I was like, "Oh, it's a great title. It's a principle that everybody really likes, really is really fun". We put these like fun forms and fun exercises in it. I thought it was going to explode and it did like just okay. It doesn't do okay is How to be the Greatest Improviser. And the only difference is How to be the Greatest Improviser is addressing advanced students, doesn't talk about the basics at all. That's the people who buy books.
Shay 37:57
That's a learning experience right there.
Will Hines 37:59
Yeah, that's true.
Shay 38:00
I love that, just writing a book. I mean, you had put in, you know, the work years before so that's pretty cool. And I also want to ask you about your podcast. So you have multiple podcasts, a few retired, what is the deciding factor for you to do a podcast or to not do a podcast?
Will Hines 38:19
The first one I did, I got asked to do it. The very first one I did was in New York, it was just called the UCB Comedy Podcast and then it was Long Form Conversations with this guy John Fruschiante, who was a teacher, wanted to do one. He just asked me to do it with them where we had like guests on every week talked about improv, this was like in 2009, or something. We barely knew what a podcast was or how to do it. And then my friend Anthony King asked when I moved out to LA in 2014, my friend Anthony King asked me to do Don't Get Me Started. And he wanted to focus on industry people, showbiz people not talking about showbiz, he was just like, oh, at that time, every week, there was a million people talking about their careers. So he was like, oh, maybe have one where we talk about something else. So we did that for a while. And then in doing those two, I learned the mechanics of publishing a podcast like what microphones to get, how to edit it, how to upload it, like just literally how to make one. And so then I just, I like making shit. So then I just I did Screw It, We're Just Gonna Talk About the Beatles after Trump got elected and I was depressed and I just wanted a podcast where I could not talk about politics. And then my brother, a lot of them are people come to me, my brother wanted to do one on to comic books. So my brother and I do one on comic books and somewhere in there, I started being asked to do Earwolf podcasts like Comedy Bang! Bang! and Improper Humans and those like, have huge audiences. And I have no idea how I got roped into it, but I just lucked out. And Scott Aukerman, the host of Comedy Bang! Bang!, kept asking me to do Bang! Bang!. And so I became a podcast person. I was gonna say celebrity but I'm not big enough to be Podcast celebrity but Bang! Bang! is big enough that even if you are a, like third tier Comedy Bang! Bang!, guests, suddenly people in the podcast world know you. It's kind of fun. I got recognized. I was in Australia teaching an improv workshop and I was at this bar with the other person teaching with me, Beth Appel. And somebody walked up and said, "Are you Will Hines?", in an Australian accent, which I can't do.
Shay 40:22
(laughs)
Will Hines 40:23
I was like, "Yes.", and they were like, "Oh, I recognize you. Your voice from the Comedy Bang! Bang! podcast." I was like, Jesus Christ.
Shay 40:28
Voice. Wow.
Will Hines 40:29
Incredible. My voice. I told him I was like, "You're weird", I told him, "You're strange. You like that podcast too much" is what I told him. I chided him, ashamed him for complimenting me.
Yeah. (laughs)
No, I didn't. It was really nice.
Shay 40:43
Yeah, those podcasts are fun improv podcasts. It kind of makes me wonder why I don't do one because they just, you're just improvising, making up characters. And you come in with characters. So, I think that's a really fun thing.
Will Hines 40:56
It is pretty fun. Yeah, I mean, you can always do it. You know, I like things where you can just try it. Like, I've also tried podcasts that like didn't work, even Don't Get Me Started me and Anthony, which was sort of critically acclaimed, we never got a big audience for it. We never got more than like, 4,000 downloads per episode. I mean we would occasionally, but generally, we have 4,000 downloads in episode. That's pretty good, by the way, but that's not like big, like his wife started one. And immediately it was getting like 20,000-30,000 downloads an episode. And we were just like, I guess let's just stop.
Shay 41:25
(laughs) Okay.
Will Hines 41:26
Really, we stopped because Anthony started getting really busy in his work life, but I'm always I'm a fan of just trying something. And if it works, stick with it. And if it doesn't, you can just stop it. I like making stuff.
Shay 41:38
Yeah.
Will Hines 41:38
Somebody told me once, like, a good piece of advice is like, do every idea like every idea you have just do it. Now that's sort of impossible. But what I took from that was like, just do as many things as you can like just finish stuff. And some of them will take root and lead to other things. And some of them won't, but you don't really know what it's going to be. So I've always been pretty effortful of just doing stuff. I also don't mind stuff to suck, I don't mind, especially the first time I do something for it to be bad. Sometimes I'm too much that way. I'm too sloppy, but like, I'll just do shit. Because I sort of believe most people quit. Most people don't finish. If you can be someone who just does anything, you've separated yourself from the herd, just like you doing this Shay, you've probably thought about it for a while and probably wanted to do a podcast, I'm guessing and then maybe you had this idea. And then you're, like, should I do it, you probably had other ideas and kind of settled on this one, picked a title, and at some point, you just feel like I'm just doing it, I'm doing it. Whatever that is, is like that's crucial. And kudos to you for doing that. And also, that's how life happens. The just the shit you spend your time on and doing.
Shay 42:46
So do you have unfinished projects or video sketches? Yeah.
Will Hines 42:51
A million. Yeah, there's a novel I want to write that I never will because it's too hard, but it rattles around my head at this idea for a novel, it huge. I'll never do it. It's too big. Maybe I will, but it's hard to imagine.
Shay 43:03
(laughs)
Will Hines 43:04
I have a couple of movie ideas that I'd like to do. Couple podcast ideas. More than that I have like vague, foggy notions of like types of things I want to do where I don't really have a specific vision. I was like, oh, I want to do a podcast where I just explained shit. I like explaining stuff. I like learning how things work and then explaining it, mansplaining right. It's a terrible title. That would probably be accurate like, it's very satisfying to be like, "oh, here's how you like, you know, fix the spark plugs in your car or something or whatever", or like, "here's how, here's how to read the comic book Watchmen. Like Watchmen is much simpler than you think if you look at it this way", or something, or like, "here's how to, like, learn HTML", I mean, and I thought, "Oh, I love being the teacher". I wonder if I could do a podcast where I explain shit. Then I was like, "No, maybe people could teach me stuff". I'll be the student. I'll be in the humble position and people and you know, but then it's like, it's too similar to other things, or it doesn't quite have a hook or whatever. But that sits in my head and maybe someday I'll think of a hook. Or it'll happen and I'll try that one. Maybe. So whatever that is, like a little cloud of gas. That is an idea. I had a lot of those where it's hard to even say they are ideas but they're like, primordial ooze that could someday be an idea. Some of it is like, oh, is the situation right for me to do this? I wouldn't mind Twitch. I've been playing a lot of video games. I wouldn't mind like Twitch streaming myself, but I just haven't. I've been too busy doing other things. Doing an improv school in line. I might expand that or I might not. As long as I'm like putting my effort into making stuff I feel all right. I mean, what I really would love to be is cast as an actor more. That's really fun, but I sort of don't, I don't get to pick that.
Shay 44:56
Yeah, well, I love how you're doing everything else that you do have control over. And a couple more questions. What are you doing these days to level up, just what's one or two things you're doing.
Will Hines 45:09
I'm trying to have higher standards like I have to a fault, been willing to drop my standards to like finish things. And although I think that is good, I've gone too much that way. And I'm trying to spend more time on stuff and make it better. So I'm trying to weirdly be more of a perfectionist. I don't think that's maybe good advice for lots of people. But it is for me.
Shay 45:31
It's so interesting, because when I looked at, did all the research for everything, all of your stuff is packaged very nicely. You know, like your website, your improv school website, your podcasts, like your books are incredible, like the covers and just the whole package. So it seems like you are that way, it seems like you are a perfectionist in that way. Like you have complete projects, it seems like.
Will Hines 45:58
Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. I guess I just see what's wrong with all those things.
Shay 46:03
Yeah.
Will Hines 46:04
I mean, I can just see ways they could be better. I guess I do my best to try to give something a good polish. But sometimes it's just a polish, like, my own personal website. I knew HTML in the 90s. Right. So I like I just did the HTML for websites. It's not like super beautiful or like striking. It works. You know, it's like effective. But I was like, I don't have time to make this like a whiz bang knock your socks off website. I just want a place to put my headshot and my real.
Shay 46:30
Yeah, I mean, you could probably always see things to improve.
Will Hines 46:34
Yeah, I guess I'm thinking more like my priorities right now are writing scripts and doing standup. So it's like, that's what I mean, like, have a higher standard, like I'm doing a show tonight, Shay, and I have no idea what I'm doing. And it's like, maybe spend an hour and make a plan and stick to your plan. I mean, I have like material, and I have things that I've talked about, nice jokes I've done at open mics. But I often go to the show, see what it feels like, and then in my notebook, three minutes before I get up, I write down like five things that I've done before. But I'm like, "Oh, it feels like this crowd wants this". Who knows if I'm right or wrong, though, it's got to be personal, it's got to be authentic, I need to set up some punch lines. They want a story they need to feel like they're getting to know me, or they want a high energy shot, they want me to be a little character and performing or whatever. And I'll sit there and I make that decision three minutes before I go up. And in a way that is being a little fearful. And I would like to commit a bit more to a plan and really try it. So what I'm leveling up now is like planning more, planning and revising more. I'm gonna say that.
Shay 47:41
I love that. Yeah.
Will Hines 47:42
More revisions. Yeah.
Shay 47:44
Yeah, same for me. I'll just keep on writing different jokes for stand up, because I don't want to revise the other jokes that I have and like make a complete set. That's exactly what I took my stand up class for is to continue to revise. So it is, yes, it is a practice. I love that. I have one more question for you. But before how can we support you? Where can we find you online? etc.
Will Hines 48:09
Oh, thank you the best place, if you're trying to support Will Hines Enterprises, my Instagram is where I plug most things. So @williebhines on Instagram, w-i-l-l-i-e-b-h-i-n-e-s, like I pretty much put plugs there of anything I'm working on. And I guess if you want to buy my book, How to be the Greatest Improvisers On Earth you can buy it on Amazon, people don't like Amazon, it's big corporate monolith. But it's, unfortunately, very easy for me the author, because I don't have to do any of the delivering or inventory or anything. So that's the only place where you can buy my book right now. If you really don't want to buy it on Amazon there, you can get used copies from like independent bookstores. And if you want my book, but you're broke, email me or send me a message and I'll just send you a PDF. If you want to see it. It's okay. I don't mind. I mean, really, if anybody wants to read my book, I'm so grateful that I'm not going to quibble over them actually give me money for it. I'll send you a PDF. And then later, if you're ever successful, you can buy a copy to make up for the free one I give you, if you want.
Shay 49:05
Yeah, there you go. Cool. Well, thank you for that and so my last question for you is, what advice would you give someone who might be hesitant to put themselves out there and what to keep in mind when they start doing it?
Will Hines 49:20
That's a great, great question. And that is a really crucial time when you're starting and being scared to start or feeling like you're not good enough is so universal, and yet it is so difficult. So I guess I'll just say that just asking that question is probably the most important thing. But I'll give you some particular advice. Pretend like you are already famous and so that people are going to love whatever you do. Just pretend, you know, Bill Murray walks into a movie and everybody loves it. Bill Murray's good, sometimes he's bad, but nobody notices because he's beloved or pick whoever you want. Yeah, Tom Hanks. Tom Hanks has bad movies kind of, all the time, he's really talented, but he's been in bad movies. But still, when he shows up, people are glad to see him, right. And they're excited for the next Tom Hank something or other. So like, pretend like you're like that already, pretend like he got it. Pretend like people are, they just love you, no matter what you do, like trick yourself into loving yourself so you can see what it feels like. And then eventually, it'll be true. So pretend you're famous or weird, I'll give you another one that I used to do. I don't know if this is good or not. But sometimes I'll pretend that nobody in the audience knows me, than I am a stranger so that there's no stakes. So that like, I can just do whatever and it'll be alright. Sometimes that would make me feel better. Invariably, somebody would know me, you know, the people on stage would know m, but I would just be like, Okay, now I'm a total stranger, I can do whatever. Not that I was gonna do anything outrageous. But I needed that freedom to feel like there was no stakes, and I could just do it.
Shay 50:52
Yeah, I like both of those. I mean, with the whole famous thing. It is like the feeling first just the feeling of success, before I think actually seeing it and then yeah, with nobody knowing you. It's like we're so close with ourselves that when we see another person on there that we don't know, we're like, "Yeah, we don't know them".
Will Hines 51:10
Yeah.
Shay 51:10
And we think that other people are thinking something about us when it's like, they don't know us.
Will Hines 51:15
Right, right. Take that pressure off yourself.
Shay 51:17
Yeah
Will Hines 51:18
Here's a little name dropping thing, I once did improv show with Robin Williams. He like showed up at UCB, New York, Robin Williams R.I.P., and we were all doing our show. And Robin Williams showed up and a lot of people have this story because he drops in at lots of places and just does improv or he did when he was alive. And UCB was a place he liked to stop by. So there we were. Sunday night, getting ready to do his show. It was the first round of the NBA Playoffs. The New York Knicks were in the playoffs. So a lot of the regular performers weren't there. So us B Team got called up to do the Sunday night show, which was a big show. And then Robin Williams showed up. He had the day off, he was on Broadway, and he had Monday off and he wanted to perform. And so he came out on stage, audience goes ape shit. "Please welcome to stage Robin Williams". Everybody goes fucking nuts. And he was extremely funny and he was extremely good. He also was a real sweetheart. I want to just say like, really kind energy and real nice to us even though he was 100 times the comedian we all were. But it's still it's improv, right? He had some scenes where he kind of sucked. It's a mystery, he didn't know what to do and he kind of would do old Robin Williams characters and gimmicks, little bit. But the audience exploded every time he opened his mouth. He didn't he didn't need to be good. They were so excited to see him. And that's where I was like, "Man, I got to try it sometimes to act like I'm Robin Williams walking out on stage, and they're going to just love whatever I do. I don't have to win them over". So being able to adopt that mindset. And he did a thing on the backline, if he did a scene with somebody when you got to the backline, if he liked it, and I'd say he did this but half the time, he'd stick his like handout and like give you like a little tiny like high five with his fingers. And it was so sweet and kind of exciting. As like, I think he was just having fun.
Shay 53:09
Yeah.
Will Hines 53:09
It's like oh, man, what a what a delight.
Shay 53:11
Yeah.
Will Hines 53:12
And still the only person I've ever met who my father has heard of. The only like, you know if I say, "I did improv with Ian Roberts", he's like, "Who's Ian Roberts?", or, "I did it with Zach Woods", and he's like, "Who's Zach Woods", and I'll be like, "I did it with Robin Williams", and he's like," Oh, wow. Robin Williams". That level of fame.
Shay 53:34
Yeah. Well, I love that. Thank you for sharing and thank you for being here today, for your wisdom.
Will Hines 53:40
My pleasure, Shay, nice to see you.
Shay 53:41
Yeah, you too. And thank you everybody else for listening to Level Up! With Shay. If any part of what Will shared today resonated with you please share this episode and tag me and Will @williebhines on Instagram so we can see what you like. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week.
(outro) Thank you so much for listening to today's episode with Will Hines. If anything that Will said today resonated with you please share this episode on Instagram and tag me @levelupwithshay and tag will @williebhines. All of his social media links and more are in the show notes. So go show him some love over there. Subscribe to Level Up! With Shay wherever you get your podcasts. Again, thank you so much for being here. It's time to level up.
